New business model = win win win? YOUR FEEDBACK IS NEEDED!!!

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lu80
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Re: new business model = win win win?

Post by lu80 »

Hernan wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:35 pm Let me see if I get it... kinda like Reddit coins, right?
Yes, not quite, but very close.
Reddit coins is, you buy rewards and reward someone and then he has more points than before, but that's it.

My idea is goes a bit further, means the points you earn (for identifying samples that some people put a reward on) can be spend again on other samples or maybe paid out as real money once you collected enough (cause that would give people really a goal to go for).
Hernan
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Re: new business model = win win win?

Post by Hernan »

lu80 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:41 pm Yes, not quite, but very close.
Reddit coins is, you buy rewards and reward someone and then he has more points than before, but that's it.

My idea is goes a bit further, means the points you earn (for identifying samples that some people put a reward on) can be spend again on other samples or maybe paid out as real money once you collected enough (cause that would give people really a goal to go for).
It took me a while to analyze it but are you suggesting the more samples named, the more points you'll get and these points will be used for sticking your sample on the top of the first page for a short period of time, replacing the payment method. Is that what are you trying to say or am I messing up?
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lu80
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Re: new business model = win win win?

Post by lu80 »

Hernan wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:18 pm
lu80 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:41 pm Yes, not quite, but very close.
Reddit coins is, you buy rewards and reward someone and then he has more points than before, but that's it.

My idea is goes a bit further, means the points you earn (for identifying samples that some people put a reward on) can be spend again on other samples or maybe paid out as real money once you collected enough (cause that would give people really a goal to go for).
It took me a while to analyze it but are you suggesting the more samples named, the more points you'll get and these points will be used for sticking your sample on the top of the first page for a short period of time, replacing the payment method. Is that what are you trying to say or am I messing up?
No no no :) Seems this is more complicated than i thought it is.
Let me walk you through.
  1. Lets say there is a sample that is not identified yet (could be yours, could be one of someone else entirely)
  2. But you badly want to see this sample identified
  3. You buy WZS-Coins for $1 (lets say that equals 10 coins)
  4. Then you spend maybe 5 coins on that sample
    (how many coins you want to spend as a reward on a sample is totally up to you,
    you can also increase the coins on a sample sometime later if you think the reward should be higher to make more people interestend in identifying it)
  5. You will then have 5 coins left which you can spend on other samples and 5 coins will stick to that sample as a reward
  6. Now someone else identifies that sample correctly and will then receive 5 coins as a reward
  7. That person can now spend that 5 coins on any other sample as a reward or keep that coins
And my dream would be that once you earned a few hundred coins as a reward, you can then get half the value of them payed out as real money.
Means
  1. You have earned lets say 500 coins (which would equal $50 in this example)
  2. You click on payout and receive $25 to your bank account (or a voucher for a big online store that doesn't need to be named here)
  3. You then have 0 coins
Hope everything is a bit clearer now :)

Edit:
And to also add this (again):
I don't even want to see the premium thing to be touched.
People should be able to chose freely how they want to push samples.
I just want to have a method that gives people a real incentive to put work into identifying samples, cause they can earn a reward for it.
Last edited by lu80 on Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hernan
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Re: new business model = win win win?

Post by Hernan »

Ah... a bounty reward. I understand it now.
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Czar
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Re: new business model = win win win?

Post by Czar »

Yes, the idea in my opinion is very similar to Reddit coins.

We are waiting for more replies/comments/feedback on this idea before implementing. Our top priority is to listen to what our users want!

My personal opinion is that it might work out pretty well, as it will involve more users searching for songs and they will get rewarded. On the other hand, we have a lot of music enthusiast and implementing such business model will "commercialize" their efforts which might not make them feel well.

We might also have issues with payouts as not everyone has Paypal. Doing wire transfers is expensive. Another option is Crypto of course:)

Please ask your friends and people you know to give their opinion/feedback here.

Thank you all!!!

Hernan wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:35 pm Let me see if I get it... kinda like Reddit coins, right?
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Czar
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Re: new business model = win win win?

Post by Czar »

Here is the idea again explained and a bit simplified. Correct me if I am wrong @lu80

We want to integrate WZSCoins reward system to motivate more users to search and name songs. For their efforts they will get WZSCoins. Users that want their songs named faster, can offer a reward in WZSCoins. WZSCoins can be purchased with real money.

Let's say 1 WZSCoin = $0.10
WZSCoins can be purchased as packages with Credit cards or Paypal

Here is a simple scenario:

1. User makes a new post and in the process he/she can offer a reward for the person who finds the right song, lets say 10 WZSCoins. If you want that song identified so badly, you can add more coins as a reward at any time. Users can add rewards for old posts as well, not just for the new ones.
2. More people will be motivated to search for the song as they will get rewarded for their efforts
3. Once the song is identified correctly, the person who found the right answer and it gets confirmed by the poster will get 10 WZSCoins
4. When an user collects 1000 WZSCoins = $100, he/she can cash out for real money
5. Watzatsong.com will keep 50%(just putting 50% to explain the idea. It might be less) of the amount and pays the user $50
6. We can allow any user to add to the reward for those songs that have a lot of subscribers - The more people want a song named, the more coins will be in the pool for that song.

Note: All the numbers and % above are mentioned with the only purpose to give an idea how this can work out.

Pros:
1. Motivation - more people will search for songs as they will also get paid for their efforts
2. More traffic as more people will visit the website to try identify songs and make some extra $
3. More recognized songs as more users will be searching

Cons:
1. As you know we have a lot of music enthusiasts and this might be de-motivational for them and make them feel bad - the fact that we actually commercialize their efforts (biggest concern)
2. Will need more moderating resources as more users will try to cheat
3. Not all users have Paypal and will be hard to make pay-outs. Might integrate other methods once we know what users have.

Waiting for feedback from more users
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lu80
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Re: new business model = win win win?

Post by lu80 »

Czar wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:43 am [...]

Cons:
1. As you know we have a lot of music enthusiasts and this might be de-motivational for them and make them feel bad - the fact that we actually commercialize their efforts (biggest concern)
2. Will need more moderating resources as more users will try to cheat
3. Not all users have Paypal and will be hard to make pay-outs. Might integrate other methods once we know what users have.
I would have phrased a few things differently, but i don't want to be nitpicking.
So yes, your summary is correct.

I just would like to say something about the Cons. Sorry in advance for the amout of text.

Regarding point 1:
I don't want to deny that there might be people who would feel offended by such a system, but actually the commercialization of their efforts is already present, as their efforts already lead to income by ads and premium purchases.
So by adding this system, their efforts would technically even be less commercialized as they could participate in the profits.
But maybe that's just my point of view.

Regarding point 2:
I actually tend to disagree here, cause in my eyes it's a question of how the system would be implemented.
There's already a sort of "dislike button" in the discussion for samples that are not named correctly.
The only way of cheating i currently see would be, to post a sample that's highly rare but very attractive, to attract a lot of people to spend coins on it and then name it wrong with a second account to just get the reward.
Usually payout systems therefore add a payout-delay to rewards (like a month or so) before you can request the payout.
This would give other users plenty of time to "dislike" incorrectly named samples.
Also a dislike could automatically lead to put a hold on the reward for that sample until a mod looked into it.
Means, it would only turn into a bit of frustration when some people get their rewards delayed because of a dislike, but the danger of paying out true money by mistake, would be very minimal and you wouldn't even need more mods, cause the current mods could have a look into it whenever they have time.

Ragarding point 3:
As i mentioned in another post, the payout could also come in form of a "voucher for a big online store that doesn't need to be named here".
But yes, i can see that potentially a certain amount of people might not be able to get their payout.
Question that might need to be discussed is (if this whole idea actually gets somewhere), if those people can't be payed out differently, by maybe getting "free premium hours" for their samples or to use their coins for the $15,99 no adds donation.
But that's just an idea, i do not dare to predict in any way how that might affect your current business modell.
BookOfBen
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Re: new business model = win win win?

Post by BookOfBen »

Point 2 is a big one, I can think of a couple of ways users might try to game the system.

Users who always reject proposals, even if they are correct, in order to keep their bounty when the month expiry passes.

Users who see a sample that already has a correct proposal, and put a duplicate answer in the hopes that the requester will choose their copy instead of the first one.


And for users who aren't trying to cheat the system,

Users might also be unhappy if they put a bounty on someone else's song, the requester doesn't approve or reject, and the community votes for a proposal that the paying user doesn't think is the correct answer.

Or if the paying user puts a bounty on a remix, someone proposes the original version of the song, which the requester is happy to accept, but the paying user is not happy to accept.
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lu80
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Re: new business model = win win win?

Post by lu80 »

BookOfBen wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:09 am Point 2 is a big one, I can think of a couple of ways users might try to game the system.

Users who always reject proposals, even if they are correct, in order to keep their bounty when the month expiry passes.

Users who see a sample that already has a correct proposal, and put a duplicate answer in the hopes that the requester will choose their copy instead of the first one.


And for users who aren't trying to cheat the system,

Users might also be unhappy if they put a bounty on someone else's song, the requester doesn't approve or reject, and the community votes for a proposal that the paying user doesn't think is the correct answer.

Or if the paying user puts a bounty on a remix, someone proposes the original version of the song, which the requester is happy to accept, but the paying user is not happy to accept.
  1. Lets play through your first concern.
    We have sample 1234 which user A has uploaded.
    User A has spend 10 coins on his sample.
    User B has spend 5 coins on that sample.
    And user C has spend 5 coins on that sample.
    Now user D makes a correct proposal and theoretically would get 20 coins for it.
    But user A rejects that proposal in order to keep his 10 coins.

    That would of course be very rude of user A and upsetting for user D, but actually no one would lose any coins.
    So yes, that's cheating, yes, that would disappoint users, but no one would lose any coins they have paid for and no one would gain any real money by cheating.

    So it's a matter of implemented tools, like maybe users who spend coins on a sample can rate and comment the uploader of a sample, after it has been named or the reward expired.
    A user with many negative ratings most likely might not get any new rewards on his samples in the future, maybe not even get his samples named as no one would like to help people like that.
  2. About the duplicate answer concern.
    It always takes two for that.
    I mean, people who upload a sample want to know which song it is, so i think it's pretty unlikely they chose the wrong answer.
    Maybe by accident or if the uploader is their accomplice who does accept the wrong answer.
    For the "dislike button" that's in discussion i already suggested, that it should enable users, who spent coins on that sample, to put the payout on hold, so mods have enough time to handle the case.
  3. Community votes concern.
    I don't see that. I mean if the community votes for a proposal, who would actually get the reward?
    In that case, all coins would have to go back to the people who spend it anyway, which means no one would lose coins they paid for.
  4. Remix concern.
    That's actually a valid point, cause it's already happening and it will not only be disappointing but frustrating if you spent coins for it.
    Maybe that's a matter of communication, like "Please notice: If you spend coins on this sample, it's possible that the original song is named instead of the version of this sample".
    So each user who's willing to spend coins on a sample can decide if he's also willing to take that risk.

    Another, more fair, solution might be, to add a dropdown to the proposal input mask, that differentiates between original version, similar version and exact match and users who are willing to spend coins on a sample can select in which case they wanna see their coins to be payed out and users who want to identify a sample can see, how many coins they will receive for which case.
    If someone selects the wrong case in his proposal and the answer is accepted anyway, user who spend coins can hit the dislike button and have a mod looking into it.
After writing all this, i think the main problem of this system won't be cheating, it will be "how long will users be willing to wait for a clarification until finally a mod found the time to look into it".
Apparently the weak point of this system is, more mods vs. patient users.
So i guess, Czar was indeed right, when he mentioned that this system "will need more moderating resources".
admin
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Re: new business model = win win win?

Post by admin »

Dear Lu80

I really greatly appreciate the time you spent on writing all the explanations. THANK YOU!

We currently have a team of professionals with enough experience to create this tool good enough to make most of the users happy from usability point of view. However, our biggest concern is still how the community will feel about the system. As already mentioned, what they want is our top priority.
I am not saying it won't work out or they don't want it!
Putting a value on how badly you want a sample named would rank the samples by potential benefit. That might break the relaxed vibe of the community which is not here for money but by passion. Also giving real money to the users might break the community spirit and lead to a lot of potential cheating.

Those are just few assumption and I would really like to see more opinions here.
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